ABC-7 Xtra: Tran-Pacific Partnership

>>> live, where news comes first, this is “abc-7 xtra. >>> it’s sunday, june 7th, welcome to “abc-7 xtra. i’m stephanie valle in for maria garcia tonight. for the next half-hour, we’re talking about the trans-pacific partnership, otherwise known as the tpp. the tpp is a free trade proposal that could include 12 countries on the pacific rim, from chile and peru in south america to vietnam in southeast asia. china is putting out feelers about the possibilities of joing as well. president obama has said the partnership would expedite u.s. exports to the west by removing tariffs and making it easier to get through customs. to make this a reality, the president is looking to congress to approve fast-track authority. it would allow the president to present congress a fully negotiated deal for a straight up or down vote without amendments allowed. the senate has voted in favor. the house hasn’t voted yet. but the vast majority of the 245 republicans are expected to vote “yes. the white house is looking for support from 25 to 30 democrats, including el paso’s congressman, beto o’rourke. he hasn’t indicated how he’ll vote. joing me tonight, dr. tom fullerton, an economics professor at utep and the chair of the study of trade in the americas at the university’s college of business administration. also, cemelli de aztlan, a member of the el paso coalition to stop fast track. you can e-mail us your comments and questions now to abc7xtra@kvia.com. you can also reach us at 915-496-1775, or tweet me at @stephanievalle7. the topic has thrust el paso into the spotlight, as the president works to get the votes of democrats like congressman o’rourke who hasn’t vocalized whether they’ll vote in favor of fast-track authority. the push for support, afforded abc7’s estela casas an opportunity to interview obama one-on-one. >> hi, how are you? so nice to see you. how have you been? >> nice meeting you. >> only seconds for pleasantries. our own estela cas spoke with the president about the tpp and the fast-track authority in a five-minute interview. >> now, if the fast track doesn’t go through, is the agreement doomed, is tpp doomed? >> if i don’t have the authority to be able to just present an agreement that’s been negotiated before congress, it’s subject to all kinds of amendments and each member of congress says well i want a little more of this or i want a little more of that. you can imagine that you’d never actually get it done. so at some point, you’ve got to be able to say all right here’s what we’ve been able to negotiate, you get an up or down vote, if you don’t like it, if you think it’s the wrong deal for the american worker you can still vote against it. >> the president said a third of our nation’s economic growth since the recovery has been driven by exports. el paso is the second busiest port of entry along the southern border of the united states behind san diego, with $90 billion in trade that passes through our ports every single year. >> a lot of el pasoans don’t understand just how vital this trade is, not only to el paso, but to the united states of america and to the security of mexico. >> former el paso mayor john cook is executive director of the u.s. mexico border mayor’s association, which has been working for years to increase the flow of traffic at borderland ports of entry. >> i think geographically we are right smack dab in the middle of where everything is happening and we have a proven track record. i think it’s going to be very beneficial for us because we were pioneers in that industry. >> it has the potential to do a lot of harm to this community in the same ways that nafta did a lot of harm to this community taking away thousands of manufacturing jobs. >> these protesters outside congressman beto o’rourke’s office this week disagree. they do not want fast track or the tpp to pass. >> it has been referred to again and again as a trade deal which is rather misleading. what it really is is a giveaway of rights to corporations at the expense of citizens, at the expense of the environment, at the expense of workers rights. at the expense of safety regulations. >> the national political director for communication workers of america, a former el pasoan, also opposes fast-track. >> it doesn’t make sense to the american people, it doesn’t make sense for el paso, we urge people to call their member of congress to vote no on fast track. >> o’rourke still saying he’s on the fence. >> ultimately, i’m going to do what i think is in the community’s interest. and not be too concerned about the politics or any of that stuff. i think i was elected to do what was right, regardless of, you know, short-term consequences. so i’m going to use that as a basis for my decision and again, until that vote takes place, i’m going to continue to gather information so i can make the best informed decision possible. >> meantime, the president urges action. >> the key now for us is to make sure that the jobs we are now creating, the places where we have an advantage: high skill, high-value jobs, that we are able to compete on a world stage and we are able to sell our products, made in america, all over the world. and that’s what this trade authorization does. >> before we get to the debate, joing us now is abc-7 anchor estela casas. thank you for coming on today. >> he’s one of 17 congressmen who are still on the fence and el paso is a key player in all of this. it’s one of five, sacramento, san diego, seattle, dallas and el paso. >> so friday? >> yes, it was — it happened all very fast. we had all the arrangements done by friday afternoon and we left on tuesday and in between friday and tuesday, i learned a lot about fast track and a lot about tpp. >> wow and so what is the process like? for a lot of people who may never get to go to the white house, it’s not simply just walking in through the doors and what was the process like from the start of the day to the end? >> we had to send our social security number, obviously, they did background checks and even before they called to ask, they obviously did a background check and so when you’re there, you have to go through high security. jerry my photojournalist, his equipment, he had to take every cable out, and then a drug sniffing dog had to come and make sure that everything was okay. so we went in and i had gotten a tour of the white house about two years ago from a representative but it was different. i was there to work. i didn’t even have a chance to get a souvenir. we had briefings all morning. and just a lot of information, just so we could understand what this is all about. and then right about an hour before i had to go in and interview the president, i couldn’t even think. i just — you just go into this place, a very dark place, and you think okay, come on, you’ve got to get it together and you’re going to go in there and you’re going to do your job, that’s what i was there to do, to do my job and to balance this report. and so i went there, and he’s very tall, very charismatic. and he’s the most powerful man in the world. >> how is it to interview someone obviously the most powerful person in the world and you’re having to not — >> mess it up. >> not mess it up and also seem like you don’t want to be overwhelmed or seem that you’re overwhelmed. you want to be able to go toe to toe with him. >> of course. i went in there thinking don’t mess this up. you’re going to have one chance. i had my questions written down and i had follow-ups and i thought well i’ve got to ask the correct question and stay on point because if i ask the wrong question, he might take over the five minutes and i’m not going to be able to interrupt him. and we had — i had a lot of questions, people sent in their questions, and we had to narrow it down. i asked like five questions and the five minutes go very fast. >> exactly. and how did you come to select just those few questions? five minutes can go by so fast. >> well, first of all, two of them were very specific to el paso. i said mr. president, we lost a lot of jobs. how are you going to reassure the people that tpp is okay, is going to be good for el paso and for texas? texas exports $300 billion a year and a lot of it comes through here, $90 billion from el paso alone. so we are a key player and he recognizes that and he had some specific points on el paso. he had some numbers that are very significant. they did put together this united states of trade and they do mention an el paso company and in new mexico they did mention a company from las vegas, new mexico. so i had kind of like the southern new mexico and west texas cornered. so it was very important and i hope i put el paso on the map and something positive for el paso because they’re noticing and we are a major player in this. and not only through n.a.f.t.a., this is a reenergized nafta. el paso has been a key player and well continue to be as they recraft nafta and fast track, as you know, they want to push it through without being able to have the amendments. >> i know a lot of people say this is a way for the president to get his message out but i do feel like this is a great way to get what’s going on in our country back to el paso because unless you’re involved in it, you may not have known this is happening. >> you know what? we kind of didn’t we haven’t been keeping track of something like this so now, i hope people are more informed and i didn’t want to be that anchor, that person who was maybe a mouthpiece for the white house and for this plan. so we worked very hard to balance it and we got that interview in washington with the representative and with congressman — el paso deserves to see the whole story. >> you’re watching “abc7 xtra. when we come back, i’ll be joined by my guests to talk about the tpp and the effect it may have on the borderland. we want you to join the discussion. you can give us a call at 915-496-1775 and you can also tweet me at @stephanievabc7. you can use the hashtag #abc7xtra and e-mail us at abc7xtra@kvia.com. we’re >>> welcome back, you’re watching “abc-7 xtra. joing us now is dr. tom fullerton, an economics professor at utep. also cemelli de aztlan, a member of the el paso coalition to stop fast track. thank you for coming on today to talk to us. >> glad to be here. >> first of all, you had mentioned during the commercial break that you feel like this is a secret, that the tpp is the biggest trade agreement that you’ve never heard of it. why do you feel like this? >> that’s exactly what it is. you know, senator elizabeth warren just recently introduced a bill demanding that the government expose the text, show me the text is what she’s asking. it’s a — it’s disregarding democracy essentially, the lack of transparency in this negotiation, if you would call it that. >> dr. fullerton, you supplied us with a lot of information about jobs, a lot of people, especially in organizations that are represented by you and others feel like this is nafta all over again. is it? >> it’s another important trade agreement with a lot of important trading partners for the united states. it’s much bigger than nafta and if you look at all of these countries collectively, they’re much bigger in economic terms than canada and new mexico together. excuse me, canada and mexico together. so in that sense, it’s sort of like nafta bulked up. the other thing about it is that it’s trickier this time around because it involves 12 countries instead of three countries. those three countries involved with nafta, they are let’s see adjacent to each other, they’re geographic neighbors, they have good relations, have had good relations for a long time, whereas now we’re dealing with a lot of countries with which the united states doesn’t have very close ties or as close ties and doesn’t have the type of tight history that the united states has with canada and mexico. and so it’s different. i think the major difference in terms of why it seems to have gone under the radar this time around is one, distance. a lot of these countries are either, you know, south of the equator or they’re west of the pacific ocean. the other thing is that ross perot is not bank rolling united we stand and making a lot of false allegations through the media this time around so it’s never caught fire the way the nafta debate did. >> when people in this area hear nafta, they always feel like el paso lost a lot of jobs. we lost a lot of manufacturing jobs. and so is this something that can happen again? >> most definitely. we lost about 35,000 jobs because of nafta. specifically hard hitting on women and families, you know. the garment industry was very hard hit by that. and, you know, the estimates for the tpp are a loss of 48,000 jobs in el paso alone. that’s a big number. that’s about 17% of our jobs, professionals that make 26k to 92k are at risk with the tpp if this goes and passes under fast track. >> i would like to point something out here. it’s true that during the nafta era, el paso lost a lot of manufacturing jobs. however, to say that they were lost because of nafta is incorrect. there were hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs lost in the united states. in the case of the apparel industry, most of those jobs went to honduras, the dominican republic and mainland china, none of which were parties to the nafta agreement. and so to say that el paso lost its apparel jobs because of nafta is historically inaccurate. yes, some jobs did go to mexico. we had several high-profile plants here that relocated down there. but what the opponents of tpp are not acknowledging is that this was not related to nafta and what happened six years after nafta went into effect? mexico shed most of those jobs, as well. mexico lost its apparel manufacturing jobs to mainland china. and so and china still wasn’t part of nafta then so to say that apparel manufacturing jobs were lost out of north america due to nafta is historically inaccurate. and there’s going to be manufacturing jobs that are quote/unquote lost no matter what trade agreements are signed or not signed and that’s just part of international economics. >> we were aware of these — the graphics that you sent to us, the line graph showing el paso manufacturing jobs and we have those if we could put them on the screen, and it’s interesting that the manufacturing jobs, yes, did decline after 1994 when nafta was passed but if we look at the next graphic where it says el paso’s total jobs, it shows that job numbers have actually increased over time and also, the unemployment rate if we want to take a look at that next graphic, it has been on the decline and also, the el paso real per capita income has been increasing. so is it fair to say that the tpp would be something that could cripple el paso if we see that our income has increased, and that the unemployment has actually decreased? >> well, the u.s. department of labor has already allocated $700 million for job traing programs, you know, expecting the hard hit of job loss and, you know, the 17% of jobs here in el paso is a big number. and those aren’t hitting the low wage jobs anymore. these are professional jobs, the service sector. if you’re at a phone or on the internet doing your job, that job is going to be in jeopardy and shipped overseas to countries that have minimum wages as low as 60 cents an hour. those aren’t the kinds of countries we want to be competing with. >> according to that type of logic, burundi should be full of millionaires right now because they have the lowest wages on the globe. the fact is it doesn’t matter what your wages are if they’re not offset by productivity. if workers in the united states get paid 10 times more than workers in another country, but they are 11 times more productive, there’s no incentive for companies to relocate overseas because they are more than offsetting that wage differential with higher productivity. it’s when you get into situations where the wage differential is not compensated by higher productivity that jobs are at risk of losing and that’s not something that’s unique to the united states. that happens in germany, it happens in japan, it happens in canada. it’s happened let’s see by the boatload in mexico in recent decades. and so it’s something that low wages are not a guarantee of economic success. if it was, countries like burundi would be doing much better than they are. >> there are a lot of organizations that have come out against fast track. in fact, you gave me a list of local organizations that have come out against it, that you wanted to represent as a voice here on “abc-7 xtra,” couldn’t fit all of them but we have the full screen including a dozen organizations that you said, and they vary from the sierra club of el paso to border network for human rights to also the el paso county democratic party. why is it that all of these organizations have come out against fast track and i’ll let both of you answer that. >> just to give some full-scale, you have the american federation of state county and municipal employees, communications workers of america, national nurses union, the american postal workers union, catholics united, just locally we have 16 organizations against this. nationally, there are 2,000 groups against this and specifically let’s take this back. fast tracking the tpp, they’re against this because it overrides the public and congress’s authority to participate in negotiations. how do we trust essentially the biggest trade deal ever known in the hands of corporate executives? you know, when we talk about transparency, we’re talking about the lack of it and the fact that 85% of people involved in the negotiations of the draft of the tpp, 85% of them are executive, corporate executives and their lobbyists. that doesn’t show public opinion or public consideration when it comes to what’s going on with the tpp. >> it’s interesting. every president that requests a fast track trade promotion authority always faces these same arguments and it doesn’t matter whether they are democrats like barack obama or if they were republicans like george h.w. bush. the fact is all of these trade agreements are hard-fought battles and usually, the complaint internationally is united states since it is the most prosperous economy in the world always gets its way at the expense of other countries. you hear that in canada and mexico with regard to nafta. none of the trade representatives from the united states are in there to sell out the united states or sell out workers at the expense of corporations, especially with a democratic president in office. he rembers who supported him, who voted for him. but this is a common misconception. none of the republican presidents have ever negotiated trade deals in bad faith on behalf of u.s. workers. >> we do have to take a commercial break but of course, we will be back to continue our discussion on the tpp and also, the fast track authority and of course, you can always chime in. you can tweet us @stephanievabc7, >>> welcome back to “abc- xtra.” we want to to get to the phones right now. we have two callers and the first one let’s go ahead and listen to the question right now. >> what is the net economic impact for el paso in terms of money, revenue, and jobs? >> dr. fullerton, if you would like to address that? >> the net impact of jobs, in terms of the trans-pacific partnership, at this point, it’s hard to say. but the upside potential is very, very large. and a lot of people are worried about the possibility of facing low-cost imports from other countries. actually imports is where the economies derive a very large portion of their dynamism. the countries that import the most are the countries that have the highest incomes, they’re also the countries that grow the fastest. this is going to help us out. it’s also going to make it easier for u.s. businesses that are in the export business or the import competion business because it’s going to make a level playing field, it’s going to introduce uniform regulations the way that they exist now in north america with 11 of our most important trading partners. >> 17% of jobs in el paso are in jeopardy. the hard numbers on that are 48,000 jobs and that’s the public service sector, to me those numbers are daunting. >> let’s go ahead to our next caller. >> the kansas city smart port likely to kill the el paso port of entry business? >> i doubt very seriously that the el paso ports of entry are going to be killed by a report issued by the former governor, even if he’s got people on board in kansas city with it. the fact is el paso is one of the biggest trading centers in the united states. they flow merchandise trade through this region and this customs district is very large, and it’s going to continue to be large in the future. >> i just wonder why now? why has this trade agreement now — what do we expect to gain? what can the other countries expect to gain with the tpp? >> in terms of trade agreements, first and foremost, because it reduces barriers to trade, both tariffs as well as regulations, that makes it easier for goods to be imported so you get more goods at lower prices. you get more varieties of goods and you get higher qualities of goods. second thing that happens is that it spurs a lot more innovation in the economies that are parties to the trade agreement. that spurs technological advancement and that’s where you get higher incomes and you get improved living standards. and so there’s a whole range of effects that are associated with trade agreements and in our specific geographic region there’s another advantage in that so many of the parts and components that are used in local manufacturing come from these countries that are involved with these negotiations. we saw what happened in 2011 with the fukushima earthquake in japan. it caused layoffs to occur in the borderland because those trade lines were disrupted. this is going to streamline those and allow more goods and components to be imported more quickly. big secret of nafta is that it didn’t affect consumer goods as much as it affected industry trade, the trade in all of these component parts, such as what was profiled in the newspaper today. >> you wanted to respond and every time he says something, you have this smile on your face that doesn’t look happy. >> well, just to give you an example, in 2012, the korean trade agreement, the united states lost 85,000 jobs with that. in mexico and central america right now with the trans-pacific partnership are in jeopardy of losing 1.2 million jobs. that’s going to push migration. our foreign policy has always affected migration, and i think we need to consider the social responsibility to what this does to real people. you know, it’s no secret that poverty exists here in el paso more than anywhere else. i moved back here in 2009 after graduating from harvard university because i wanted to make a difference in my community. when i was here as a young adult, there were no opportunities and still today there aren’t. i speak as a person, as a woman that has experienced what nafta did to our community and i advocate for that in my job, in my work, in all that i do. >> again, during the nafta era, the total number of jobs sain el paso increased fairly rapidly. in fact, our unemployment rate had been stagnant for a lot of years. it was only after nafta passed that it started declining. so if nafta brings those types of effects, let’s sign three or four more naftas. this is a at one swoop, it involves 12 countries. >> talking about three swoops that it affected and this is sort of an invisible population. it most affected women and women and their families and elderly women. these were communities that were left out of the equation. and we’re not disposable. so to disregard that that labor force was effectively moved over into mexico is disregarding our community here. we’re still suffering the effects of nafta, we’re still recuperating. and the tpp to me, it’s not about trade. it’s about controlling labor. it’s about dismantling domestic and labor laws in other countries so that corporations can have free access to what they want and need. right now, we see examples with the courts, which are corporate courts with corporate lawyers to protect corporations. you have lawsuits in canada where they tried to not allow a oil and gas company to drill and because they didn’t allow them to drill, they got sued by the oil and gas company and won. in egypt, they tried to raise the minimum wage. they were sued by corporations because that was not profitable to corporations. and in countries like uruguay and australia, they tried to health regulations, warning people about the tobacco industry and what cigarette smoking does to you, sued by the tobacco industry and lost. these are million dollar lawsuits that corporations are winning at the expense of team. >> we have an e-mail from manny asking why, both of you, why you think that the el paso congressman is stalling. why is it that you feel he is stalling? >> i was in washington four weeks ago and i met with the congressman in his office at the building and i think he is — he’s looking at this from multiple angles. and he is making an effort to become better informed and so i don’t know how he’s going to vote. but i think at least part of the equation is he’s trying to be better informed. there’s probably some political strategy involved in what he’s doing. his colleague from just across the state line, steve pierce hasn’t taken a position on it either, although he is normally a free trade advocate. so i think we go to the house of representatives or to the senate and there are multiple things occurring and, you know, the day i was in washington to meet with congressman, there were representatives of the white house, so there’s a lot going on and i’m not sure what the answer to that is but i do know that he’s making a good faith effort in terms of looking at it from all over. >> what do you think? >> he’s definitely stalling because there’s a lot riding on this. because we are a port of entry, because of our trade, to make a — i would like to send a message to him now, dropping off letters, hundreds of letters from concerned community members and unions and organizations cooping — opposing this fast track legislation on the tpp. if he wants to dismantle labor unions from san francisco to new york, by all means, go further but if you want to protect people and your family, then you need to vote no on fast track. >> okay. all right. we’re going to wrap this up so if there are any last thoughts that you would like to give? >> according to the logic of my fellow guest here tonight, if we cut off trade with other regions of the world, that’s going to lead to better prosperity here locally. we’re making a trade agreement with foreign lands with different laws, different ways of speaking, by that logic texas should stop trading with california. we’ll have a lot of jobs materialize here but, in fact, as the economic history has shown for centuries, that this is not the way towards prosperity. commerce and trade are always associated with better opportunities for workers and for businesses. >> and i would like to close with there’s over 2,000 labor unions and organizations that are deeply against this. and are you saying that they’re wrong? >> on this one, yes. in fact, there’s always organized labor organizations that are against trade agreements but trade agreements throughout the history of the united states have been associated with better prosperity, higher incomes, lower unemployment, just as we saw in nafta, not only nationally but here in el paso county, as well. >> okay. both of you, thank you for coming on. we appreciate it. obviously more than half an hour would be needed to discuss something that involves so much and so much revenue and countries so thank you for taking the time today. >> thank you. >> and thank you for watching us here