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tonight we’re talking about a topic that touches a nerve with many americans. >>> live where news comes first, this is “abc-7 xtra. >>> good evening. i’m maria garcia. welcome to “abc-7 xtra. tonight, we’re talking about a topic that touches a nerve with many americans, a topic so embroiled in emotions and politics, it’s often difficult to have a civil discussion about it, but tonight, we’re attempting just that. i know it’s unlikely that young children are awake and watching this, but just in case: some of the issues we’ll be touching on tonight could be graphic and not fit for young viewers. we’re talking about the embattled fight to defund planned parenthood after a pro-life group revealed several undercover videos of planned parenthood doctors and officials allegedly discussing the sale of fetal tissue. now, abortion providers can donate fetal tissue to medical research companies, who for decades have used it to try to find cures for diseases and develop vaccines, but abortion providers cannot profit from the fetal tissue, only get back shipping fees and costs like that. and the center for medical progress, the group that secretly recorded the videos and also put this one out, accuses planned parenthood of trying to make money off the fetal tissue. and now, senate republicans this week plan to vote to end federal funding to planned parenthood but supporters of the organization point out federal money can’t be used for abortions anyway and abortions, they say, make up only 3% of planned parenthood operations. democrats say an attack on planned parenthood is an effort to keep millions of women, many of them poor, from needed health services, like cancer screenings and contraception, which reduce abortions. joing us tonight, gabriela federico, a member of 40 days for life. and lyda ness, who founded “stand with el paso women,” advocacy group who lobbies for pro-choice issues. you can e-mail us your comments and questions now to abc7xtra@kvia.com. you can also reach us at 915-496-1775. on twitter, use the hashtag #abc7xtra. or tweet me at @mariagabc7. before our discussion, let’s look at excerpts from one of the videos and get a recap of the discussion. >> what would you expect for intact tissue? what sort of compensation? >> well, why don’t you start by telling me what you’re used to paying. >> that’s dr. mary gatter, a planned parenthood official in california. on the edited video, she starts discussing a cost of $75 per tissue sample, while repeatedly saying her group is not in it for the money. >> we don’t want to be in the position of being accused of selling tissue and stuff like that. on the other hand, there are costs associated with use of our space, and all that kind of stuff. >> exactly. >> so what were you thinking about? >> way higher than that. >> uh-huh. >> so i’d like to start around $100. >> okay. >> the doctor then suggests the clinic could change the method of abortion to get more useful intact specimens. >> are you looking at eight or nine-week specimens or only second trimester specimens? >> you know, 10 to 12 week, end of the first trimester. if those are pretty intact specimens, then that’s something we can work with. >> i’ll mention this to ian and see how he feels about using a less crunchy technique to get more whole specimens. >> although the doctor says both techniques are valid and safe, bioethicist art caplan finds it all troubling. >> and you can’t give even the faintest suggestion that you are going to change the technique because you have an interest in getting fetal tissue. those are boundaries that can’t be crossed. the tape gives the suggestion that they were pretty close to crossing them and i think that’s especially worrisome. >> planned parenthood denies selling organs from fetuses, saying payments just cover operational costs. >> let me just figure out what others are getting. if this is in the ballpark, that’s fine, if it’s low then we can bump it up. i want a lamborghini. >> our top priority is the compassionate care that we provide. in the video, one of our staff members speaks in a way that does not reflect that compassion. this is unacceptable and i personally apologize for the staff member’s tone and statements. >> that was the leader of planned parenthood. joing us now, lyda ness with stand with el paso women and gabriela federico with 40 days for life. thank you both of you for coming in. lyda, i want to start with you. even for many planned parenthood supporters, the videos seem alarming. we just heard from one of the doctors saying she’s thinking about a lammer — lamborghini. many say that’s just inappropriate at best and cruel at worst. and truly you can see why people are outraged that seemingly these doctors are callously speaking about profiting from fetal tissue. >> well, let’s be clear. i don’t think that they speak for planned parenthood in some of those instances but secondly, and i think it was pound out in the opening segment, there is no profit and the segments that have been heavily edited out, she says planned parenthood does not profit from the sale of fetal issues. it’s merely for the transportation and cost of maintaing those issues which any consenting individual can donate for the purpose of life-saving research. >> but if you’re watching that video, it seems like they’re talking about profit but yes, you’re right, they say she doesn’t — even though she’s there as a planned parenthood representative in that video, there are people who say she doesn’t represent their mission but even then, the health and human services guidelines point out that a clinical team who provides an abortion should not know if that fetus will be donated to medical research so as not to jeopardize the safety of the woman or clearly, here, we see her speaking about specific abortions in which the fetus will be donated to medical research and how the abortion can be altered. so that in itself, the fact that she was talking about altering the method of abortion is really alarming to people. >> well, planned parenthood is one of the most highly audited agencies that exists in the united states. they’re highly regulated, highly audited and they have collide in every investigation that has gone through. they comply with every standard in their tissue donation program. there’s been a lot of backlash, and it’s basically being used for political agenda here. if there’s any misgivings or misdoings that are being perpetrated, we’re the first ones out there to say there needs to be monitoring and oversight. this is not the scenario that happened here. every investigation that’s been called in by the republicans who have sought to defund planned parenthood has indicated no illegal activity took place. in fact, the only illegal activity that took place by the illegal wire tapping or the video taping of this discussion. >> and we do want to mention planned parenthood has asked the national institute of health for an independent panel on this. gabriela, i want to ask you. why not an investigation on whether planned parenthood violated medical ethics or violated federal law? why not an independent investigation instead of just completely defunding it and leaving 2.7 million american women who they serve for cancer screening with a resource they can no longer go to? >> well, you know planned parenthood that has offered many services to women i think what we need to focus on is to see why this is happening. why are they selling or transporting or donating these — it’s not tissue, they’re organs, but i think the matter is that it is recognizing that that aborted fetus is actually a human being. i think everybody’s missing that point, that it is a human being that’s being trafficked in that way, and i think that there’s been so many, you know, other investigations from other organizations that they’ve done on planned parenthood like covering up statutory rape misinformation, giving misinformation to women, and various other things you know, that they’ve been — that they’ve also been investigated by other organizations, not necessarily by the state. >> but gabriela, for the millions of women who rely on planned parenthood for cancer screenings, potentially life-saving screenings, doesn’t their life matter, too? >> of course. their life should matter so much that planned parenthood should offer mammograms. planned parenthood does not offer mammograms and so people know in el paso, we don’t have planned parenthood and we haven’t needed planned parenthood for so long. that’s why we have wonderful health clinics in el paso. >> lyda, i see you reacting. >> texas has the third highest rates of teen pregnancies, one of the highest rates of stds, when you talk about the statistics and you did, planned parenthood has served 2.5 million americans in the united states, providing std screenings, hiv screenings, cancer screenings. for men, women and our youth today. when we have, you know, one of the highest number of children living in poverty, the number of children living in the foster care system, it’s disingenuous for us to say we have the support system in texas to provide that well women care that we need. planned parenthood is integral in that and what people keep forgetting is none of the federal funding is going towards abortions. that is all privately funded through donations of individuals in the united states. so — >> we haven’t needed planned parenthood. our city has done well. we have great medical clinics that have helped many women but i think one really important thing is, you know, mammograms. amongst hispanics, breast cancer is a big risk and if planned parenthood doesn’t offer that, i think the real focus here is that you know, the organs of these children, they are human beings, because that’s the latest video, even the doctor said it’s another boy, it’s a baby. and that should shock us to realize that it is a human being and they’re being desecrated in such ways. >> but if federal funding does not go towards abortion, there’s already a federal statute that forbids this taxpayer money to go towards abortion, why work to defund an organization that provides medical screening for women? >> poor women especially. >> how many abortions happen in the united states? it’s more than 3,000 every single day. and if abortions aren’t a big profit of planned parenthood then what is? if you see other local abortion clinics, their main profit is from abortion, they say it’s 3% of their services but then why do they make such a big deal? why don’t they stop doing abortions if it doesn’t bring so much profit? >> i would absolutely agree on one point. we’re all in the business of wanting to end abortions. nobody wants to have to say women go through that decision. however, when you start cutting funding to those very agencies that help prevent unwanted pregnancies, that help prevent children entering the foster care system because they’re not wanted or loved, that help prevent the funding that we need, we have thousands of children in texas who are on the snaps program. so let’s talk about really protecting life here and i’m game for that. but the issue here is this has been utilized for political agendas. it’s not being used to find out what misdeeds are going on within the system. it’s being used to propagate a political agenda, which is to ban legal abortions and we have a constitutional right to an abortion. >> in the video, she would have a discussion with the surgeon about performing the abortion in a way that preserves the organs and other body parts. even bioethicists saying that is a very dangerous boundary to even talk about crossing. >> i’m not a medical expert but what i can say is just as one harvests any type of organs, i know there’s different methods when you are donating tissue. i’m imagining that is what she’s referring to. i cannot speak to that because i don’t know the details of tissue organ harvesting but if there was anything that she did or said or propagated that was incorrect or improper, i can assure you that everyone will be coming down upon her and they’re not. >> i think we could say, you know, these videos are highly edited but the complete videos are posted on their site. you can see the whole thing, and it’s still the same thing. of course, they’re edited, you don’t want to watch three hours worth of video. but i think what we need to focus on is that these are human beings. and if we’re okay by defending planned parenthood to say that it’s okay, we’re just harvesting and transporting these organs of human beings, i think that raises a moral question because all life is sacred from the moment of conception to natural death. i think that even with planned parenthood, we’ve been coming to a compromise to say that it is a human being because we value them and they value it with money because they want to sell those organs. >> all right, we have a tweet from calvin. he says this doesn’t surprise me. there needs to be accountability for people like the ones in that video. and renee why do they cry foul with all these restrictions on planned parenthood? talk about all the positive things that planned parenthood provides. let’s go to norma in central el paso on the phone. what’s your comment or your question? >> what i’ve you never addressed the three types of abortion? the saline solution, the cut up of the baby and the section of the baby? and all of this creates pain for the baby. >> okay. so norma saying if you can address the pain the baby goes through during an abortion, the suction and the saline solution. >> i believe in a woman’s right to make that decision, that’s a decision between them, their god and their doctor. i’m not here to speak on the morality of abortion. it’s a constitutional right. i’m here to talk about the decision to effectively use this edited video to defund planned parenthood. that’s it, plain and simple. >> okay. all right. let’s go to roy on the west side. what’s your comment or your question? >> selling body parts is despicable. however, for medical research, i’ve been in several projects involving stem cell research from fetuses and they’ve been highly successful until the federal government shut them down. i think it should be c thank you. >> and that’s roy. and we do want to point this out. fetal tissue has been used for medical research since the ’40s. it was used to develop the polio vaccine, which has saved millions of lives. it’s being currently used to develop hiv vaccines and other medical things. so there clearly is some good, some medical researchers say, to donating fetal tissue, that it can save lives and that it has. >> three things. first, you know, from the research and using stem cell research, i think there’s an alternative to using embryonic stem cells and fetal stem cells, and it’s adult stem cells. and those are cells that come from the nasal cavity, from the spinal cord and skin and many therapies have been very successful without having to use fetal tissue. without having to use fetal organs and those kind of stem cells. and then speaking about the morality of it, you know, they are human beings, you know. i think, you know, we really need to question whether are we okay with abortion? is it okay for us to use their bodies and their organs to profit from them or to continue to sell them and desecrate them in that way? i think what really bothers me is the number of women and men that have experienced an abortion and have to see these videos and many women have questions already, you know. was my baby used for research? did people take my aborted baby and sell them that way? >> well, the staff needs the consent of the mother from what i understand. >> exactly, exactly. but what concerns me is the pain and the trauma that they’re going through having to think about that and, you know, in the diocese we have a program called rachel’s vineyard and a program for healing after abortions. if anybody you know, out there is in pain or wants to talk to, regardless of your religious background, we are willing to talk to you and to guide you through healing. >> can i make something clear? and this is the portion that’s edited out at least 10 times in the video. she repeatedly says we are not in the business of profiting from fetal tissue donation. that is repeated throughout that video and it is edited out. she repeatedly indicates that this is merely the cost of transportation. just as one would do with a kidney donation, any other tissue donation. so let’s be clear the idea of planned parenthood profiting is absolutely ludicrous, and it’s just a knee-jerk reaction to further political agenda. that’s it plain and simple. >> okay. we’re going to talk about the politics of it when we come back. you’re watching “abc-7 xtra. you can call us at 915-496-1775. we’re going to take tony when we come back. you can also e-mail us at abc7xtra@kvia.com. the hashtag #abc7xtra. >>> let’s go to tony who had a comment. what’s your comment or your question? >> if the foster care system has failed the children, are you saying that the only option is to kill the children? abortion, it’s horrible. >> okay. thank you very much. that was more of a comment but do you want to respond to it? >> i’m not even sure that it dignifies a response but i would say that the issue here has to do with the benefits that planned parenthood provide and what it does is allows sex education to close to 1.5 million people in the united states. that helps us create an environment where we only have children who are wanted, where we have children who are not born into poverty, where we have children who do not end up in the foster care system. that was my purpose in talking about if you really want to end the need for abortion, you invest in education. >> and lyda i have to ask you about this because it’s become part of the public rhetoric. rand paul talking about the manipulation of the fetus specifically and we’ve heard some callers talk about — obviously, this is an emotional topic for people so we have to talk about that. they talk about how there’s a concern that if doctors know that the fetus is going to be harvested for its organs or the organs are going to be harvested or donated, that they’ll manipulate the method of the abortion and they’ll turn the fetus around, turn it so that it’s feet first, remove the organs and then crush its skull last. and so there’s concern that that is unnecessarily cruel. do you want to respond to that? >> i think it goes back to the question that we always have politicians who want to second guess the personal relationship between a physician and a woman. and to suggest that physicians would violate their ama standards and the standards set by the american college of gynecology and obgs is ludicrous. there have been investigations, every single investigation with these outrageous allegations that are being made by people like rand, have been met with nothing. there has been no validation of these allegations. so that would be my response to that. >> okay. and we have an e-mail saying i personally feel that this is just another effort by religious groups to keep women from receiving health services. no official has emerged to prove that planned parenthood illegally profited from selling fetal issues and organs. it’s important to rember that fetal tissue collection is legal. federal law already prohibits using federal funds for abortions. cutting off more than 500 million in funds would deny low-income women critical healthcare. this is clearly an operation on the side of pro-life groups with a dangerous plan to keep women away from services. what do you respond to that viewer? >> was it a question? >> it was saying that this is another effort by religious groups to keep women, especially poor women, away from very much-needed health services. >> it’s religious groups that actually take that extra step to offer free services to women that are in an unplanned pregnancy, offering them free ultrasounds, free counseling because even if you go to a planned parenthood, some people pay up to — i saw, you know, looking at comments and people from the facebook group saying they’ve paid up to $46 for a pregnancy test. why? when you can go to a medical clinic in your city where you can get one for free? and i don’t understand why we keep defending planned parenthood, especially here in el paso. we don’t have planned parenthood. women can go to different places for the needs, like mammograms, you know. planned parenthood doesn’t provide that. and, you know, and if the focus is on oh, religious groups, well, it’s the religious groups that take in the women after their abortion, that provide that love and mercy that they’re looking for because it’s a very deep secret that they carry for many, many years, even women you know,, elderly women on their death bed, in the moment that they’re dying, they’re carrying this and they want to talk to somebody to say i had this, i need forgiveness, i need to talk to somebody. and especially from the united states council of bishops, they’re asking us to promote mercy in the upcoming year of mercy to provide that kind of help for women. >> okay. all right. won’t have to take a commercial break. when we come back, we’re going to rose in the lower valley who’s on the phone. more stay with us. >>> welcome back. let’s go to some of your tweets. listen up, tweeting at us, women have the right to choose whatever what they want but when it comes to abortion, it’s not right but let a woman choose. mark tweeting 92% of women entering planned parenthood get an abortion. all their services are offered elsewhere. planned parenthood says it’s below 10% of women who go to their organization to receive an abortion. let’s go to rose in the lower valley. >> these children that are being born, what support and how many people are actually adopting? and backing up these children? >> so rose is asking you know, the children who are being born and end up in the foster care system, we’ve talked about many of these children never get adopted. do you want to respond to her? >> definitely. i think there’s a lot of red tape in adoption processes, and i think maybe that’s something we can work with, with the pro choice side to try to make the adoption process easier. i spoke with a woman yesterday that said that they were thinking about adopting a baby and it would have cost them over $50,000. and so, you know, there’s a lot of different private agencies that you can go to, but it’s been very expensive, you know, for a lot of people that want to adopt a child. and, you know, maybe there’s something we could work together with, you know, to make the adoption process easier. i think that would be awesome. >> okay. >> that is absolutely incorrect. someone who works in the cps children and i represent children in the foster care system, the state, in fact, subsidizes your adoptions through monthly subsidies, as well as paying for your attorney through an adoption. we have 65,000 children in texas who are abused and neglected. 30,000 in foster care. in el paso, we do not have the homes. the children i represent are being shuttled out for foster homes because there aren’t enough. so to say that it’s a process of red tape, it’s not. these are unwanted, difficult children. plain and simple. so those facts are absolutely incorrect and we’re getting into apples and oranges here on the conversation but that’s untrue. >> so if a child sun wanted then, is it okay then to destroy their life? >> no, you fund agencies like planned parenthood that allow for sex education. >> the children who are already in the womb. >> the national journal of medicine just came out with a study over the last several years where they educated children in regards to sex ed. the number and the statistics of unwanted pregnancies, unwanted stds, unwanted sexual activity was reduced exponentially. it doesn’t take a genius to know that if you invest in contraception, if you invest in sexette rather than abstinence only education, then you prevent unwanted pregnancies, and then you prevent abortions which is the end goal of everybody! >> mark tweeting at us planned parenthood makes only one adoption referral for 174 abortions. and former planned parenthood employees say they have abortion quotas. there have been former planned parenthood employees who speak out against the organization. what do you say to mark? >> i think that has no credibility whatsoever. it is the smallest percentage of planned parenthoods that actually do referrals or even provide abortions. the majority of what planned parenthood does is well women and men healthcare. that’s a statistic plain and simple. >> if you listen to the testimonies of ex-planned parenthood employees like abbey johnson, you see how they did have quotas and she has all that documentation to show that they had abortion quotas, you know, because it gives them a lot of money for each abortion. >> from whom? where does this money come from? >> from the women that come and pay for their abortions. that’s their quotas. if you look up abbey johnson and go on her website, she has all that documentation. >> and so the allegation is that planned parenthood goes out there and solicits women into having abortions that they wouldn’t have normally had? >> definitely. if you go to the streets of l.a., there’s people on the streets, even handing out coupons for discounts for abortions. of course, they’re out there soliciting abortions. >> i think that absolutely minimizes what is a very intimate and difficult decision for a woman and a family and her partner and to minimize it to the idea that anyone would profit from it or seek to go get one because of a discount coupon is absolutely ludicrous and shouldn’t be dignified. >> john tweeting state, federal and religious groups have no right to govern women’s bodies. and the reason people go to planned parenthood is because they don’t want to be judged by religious groups or forced to hear only their point of view. and mark saying 92% of pregnant women entering planned parenthood get an abortion. all other services are offered elsewhere and he’s clarifying his tweet from earlier. and women have the choice before they get pregnant. they should step up to the results of their actions, hashtag #pro-life. let’s take one more phone call. jesse from the east side. what’s your comment or question? >> i want to know why planned parenthood has to be funded when obamacare was supposed to take care of all of this. >> do you want to take the one? >> there is a portion within the affordable care act that allows for payment of medical procedures. again, nothing within the funding provides funding for abortions. so that’s where most of our funding comes from that provides through medicaid or any other agency for poor or people of color. i don’t understand her question. >> let’s move on. the taxpayer exempt diocese is not going to pay for the unwanted children. it’s the taxpayers who have to carry the burden. do you want to respond to that? >> if we carry the burden, we’re talking about religious organizations, it’s not a burden for us to take care of children or to provide for them. even in the catholic church and, you know, protestant and other churches, they provide for women that have an unplanned pregnancy and don’t know what to do. i would like to see abortion clinics and planned parenthood really help the women and say if they choose life we’ll help you. it’s just like you go out the door. we see that here in el paso at the abortion clinics. you don’t want the abortion? okay. goodbye. where’s their help? and even after abortion, where’s their counseling? the follow-up is are you fine? are you bleeding? okay. go. they have nobody to talk to. they don’t offer any kind of psychological help and a child is not a burden. a child is a blessing from god. and that’s how we need to view it, especially after these planned parenthood videos that it actually shows in a dish them sorting the baby parts out. the organs and you can see the eyes and you can see the arm and we need to recognize the humanity of the human being and thanks to these videos, america is finally seeing the beauty of life that we need to protect life at all costs. >> okay. brian, the e-mail saying abortion might be legal but can’t blame the gop for wanting to defund due to this controversy. how many other cases of this are occurring we don’t know about. we’ve run out of time. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you so much. if you’re a viewer you know that i’m often up here with men. not on purpose. it just always works out that way so it’s really refreshing to have two smart women on the program. thank you so much. thank you. and