ABC-7 Xtra: Police Tension

>>> live where news comes first, this is “abc-7 xtra. >>> good evening, i’m maria garcia. welcome to “abc-7 xtra. today in las vegas, another police officer shot. that’s just the latest in a string of police-involved shootings. officers across the country are being seemingly targeted, and in some cases, officers appear to be using excessive force. it appears the country’s tension with policing is growing. from that deputy in texas seemingly targeted and executed in cold blood at a gas station to the san antonio officers who appear in a video shooting and killing a man with his hands up in apparent surrender, the country this week has been bombarded with dizzying headlines about police. joing us tonight, police sergeant ron martin, president of the police union. and dr. michael smith, director of the center for law and human behavior. his research relates to this topic. you can e-mail us your comments and questions now to abc7xtra@kvia.com. you can reach us at (916)496-1775. on twitter, use the hashtag #abc7xtra. >>> tensions over policing are rife in many american neighborhoods. hostility towards law enforcement seems to be evident from chants in the street to attacks on officers. meanwhile, social media revealing more and more instances of police possibly abusing their powers. ed lavendera has more. >> it seems like making sense of life on the streets of america is harder than ever to unravel. the headlines the last few days are dizzying. a manhunt for the killers of a veteran officer in illinois. >> a chopper is right overhead. a houston sheriff’s deputy ambushed and gunned down at a gas station. >> cops’ lives matter, too. >> a san antonio man with his hands up, gunned down by officers. anti-police chants in minnesota. >> pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. >> houston’s harris county sheriff still mourning the loss of one of his deputies, worries the debate is taking a toll. >> certainly those kinds of extreme rhetoric can lead to unintended consequences. >> the fury over some of these incidents rages, polarized opinions fueling the anger, even a video doesn’t tell the whole story behind a shooting. in san antonio, this video shows bexar county sheriff’s deputies responding to a domestic disturbance call. they say gilbert flores was armed with a knife and had just injured two people inside the house. flores has his hands up. officers shoot. a local tv station first aired the video, and the sheriff’s department says doing so put its officers’ lives in danger. the department encouraged people to call and complain, tweeting out the station’s phone number. >> it can’t be an us against them. it has to be police and communities working together. >> cedric alexander has spent almost 40 years working in law enforcement. he says no matter how angry some communities might be with police officers, they don’t want to live in a lawless neighborhood without cops. >> it is a very tough time to be a police officer at this moment. however, these men and women that are out there doing this job, and they’re not going to stop doing it. >> since the death of houston sheriff deputy darren goforth friday night, brian mccullar has helped organize a vigil around pump number 8, the spot where goforth was killed. he’s seen the outpouring of grief, but he says he’s also seen something else. >> it is a great feeling to see what you see here and everywhere you look, you see people talking to law enforcement giving them hugs and maybe this is the start to something different, maybe. >> maybe. these days, feeling optimistic isn’t easy. >> it is not easy. joing us now are sergeant ron martin with the el paso police department. president of the police union. nice to see you. >> good evening. >> and dr. michael smith, professor of criminal justice. let me just get your general thoughts. what do you think as someone who’s been in law enforcement for several decades when you see a week like this? really a year like it’s been in the country where every week there seems to be a new headline involving tension with police, a police shooting, violence to and from police officers, ron? >> well, it’s not the first time it’s happened. we don’t have that type of issues here in el paso. you don’t see what you see in other communities here in el paso. my personal opinion, the media has taken this to a new level. it’s getting to the point where that’s all you see every single night on the news is gun battles and police officers shooting or being shot at and riots and protests and stuff like that. that has occurred across the nation for years. it’s just getting to the point now where it’s just the media is time after time — >> but i mean, it has been a very eventful year when it comes to police tension. i don’t think you can attribute it all to the media. there’s clearly a larger national conversation about policing and the use of force and race in america. >> yes, there is in other communities. in el paso we’ve ever had that type of issue. we’ve had an officer actually shot here. you guys rember officer garcia did a drive-by, somebody pulled up and tried to kill him. that hit the media for a certain amount of time, and then it kind of stopped. but what’s happening around the world and around our nation is social media, news media, people getting their five, 10, 15 minutes of fame, they’re going on the news showing clips of officers, clips of things occurring, and it’s kind of painting a darker picture than what it is. >> but there is no doubt that this is a new era in terms of the accessibility of video when you deal with police officers. people can now record on their cell phone any time, anywhere. in bexar county, it was someone who was parked a few blocks away who police didn’t know was recording when they shot the man who according to this video looks like he’s in apparent surrender. how are police departments adapting to this do you think, dr. smith? >> it is a difficult time. i would agree with ron. i think that largely you have a media-fueled situation right now. every police shooting either by a police officer or of a police officer is a national event. and that’s — i’m not sure we’ve seen that before. and that’s driving — it feeds on itself. and i think we are seeing that. in terms of how police departments are adapting, you know, it’s a cyclical thing. policing is always a contentious profession by its nature. particularly in a democracy. and, you know, i think what we’re seeing today is one side of the pendulum and it will come back as it has in the past but it is a tough time right now. >> well, ron, you were saying that public perception when it comes to law enforcement really varies with current events, with news coverage. after 9/11 there was a very favorable public perception of law enforcement and we’re seeing sort of what appears to be the opposite of that now. >> correct. when i first got on the job over 25 years ago, policing was totally different. the citizens wanted the police out in the street, they wanted some type of strong police presence because of what’s going on in the neighborhoods with the gangs and other issues. then all of a sudden, rodney king hit. and the pendulum swung in favor of law enforcement to the other side of the spectrum and we stayed that way for a long time until 9/11. >> where there was a negative perception. >> and then every law enforcement officer, firefighter, first responder got the traing, the equipment everything they needed and they were held to their hero standard. and then as you see what’s going on lately, the pendulum is coming back down to the other side and people are starting to look at law enforcement and going well, they’re starting question everything that we do. >> well, and i think you know, you can’t ignore that that coordinates with certain events that have caused national conversation about race. the death of trayvon martin, george zimmerman, so it seems like this conversation about policing is under this bigger umbrella when it comes to race relations in the united states, dr. smith? >> i think that’s right. and i think that some of the higher-profile events you know, the ferguson case probably being the most recent flash point right has caused certainly you know, a group to form, black lives matter, that didn’t exist prior at least as an organized group anyway, did not exist prior to the ferguson shooting. so that’s new. and i think that we’re seeing that play out across the country. and i think it’s a conversation worth having, a larger conversation about race and policing is i think a conversation worth having. i do think that the media is fueling, though, some of this perception that the police are out there gunning people down right and left, in some way different than they have in the past which i don’t think is accurate. >> bexar county sheriff saying the black lives matter rhetoric is harmful towards police officers, it endangers them. do you agree with that? >> well, i think you showed a short video clip of some protesters chanting pigs in a blanket, fry ’em like bacon, that’s harmful rhetoric. >> but that’s not parallelled — i’m sure there are people who also chant black lives matter that chant the hateful rhetoric but do you think that the black lives matter movement in general is hurting police officers? >> i personally don’t think so. i think what the sheriff is trying to say is all lives matter. it doesn’t matter if you’re white, black, hispanic, asian or whatever, all life matters, it doesn’t matter if you’re a police officer or if you’re a civilian. all life matters and we shouldn’t be focused on black life matters or cops’ lives matters or anything like that. it should be that all life matters, if you’re a police officer, a civilian, it doesn’t matter what color you are. all life matters. and i think that’s the point he was trying to make and trying to swing it to where he’s anti-black lives matter, i don’t think that was his point. what he was trying to make is all lives matters, even police officers’ lives. >> but do you think that you can’t deny that among black communities, there seems to be more apprehension towards law enforcement? >> in certain communities yes. certain communities where you’ve had a white officer shoot a black citizen, maybe not their police department as a true representation of their community. each police department no matter where you live has to have a true representation of the community in which they live. el paso is about 95% hispanic. our department is about 95% hispanic. some of those other cities where you’re seeing these racial tensions between black americans and police officers, there’s a very strong white police officer base in those cities, and i think those cities need to sit down and really look at their hiring process on how they’re selecting these officers. is it a true reflection of the community? >> yeah, i think you’re right about that. let’s take a phone call from barbara in the northeast. what’s your comment or your question? >> i love and respect our police officers, men and women both. they’ve been there for me and others and i don’t think they should be going through what they’re going through. god bless each and every one of you. >> okay. thank you so much barbara. a sweet message from barbara there. nicole e-mailing us one thing i wish rogue cops would understand is every time they make a decision to rough up a suspect or shoot an unarmed person they’re endangering their brothers and sisters in blue by making the public even more likely to mistrust police. their actions reflect badly on police and it’s not fair to the multitude of officers who truly want to protect and serve. we have a lot more to talk about. stay with us. we’re going to talk about military equipment within police departments and some of the more recent cases we’ve seen with police tension. stay with us. you can call us at (916)496-1775. if you have comments or questions, tweet me at @mariagabc7 abc7xtra@kvia.com. >>> welcome to “abc-7 xtra. we’re talking about the tension over policing tonight. let’s talk about this military equipment that’s been part of the debate nationally. really hundreds of pieces of equipment have made their way from the military after being used in iraq and afghanistan to local police departments. for a while it wasn’t unusual to see men in kevlar vests, helmets, carrying automatic rifles, moving in sort of tactical armored vehicles. we saw that in ferguson. and so to some people watching, they say that’s not what community policing should look like. what do you think about that, ron? >> well, we’ve had the 1033 program for a number of years. when i was at the airport, we actually got some helicopters through the program. a lot of our bomb equipment that was going through our bomb explosive guys, they were getting their equipment. when ferguson hit, the program’s always been around but i guess the worst thing that ferguson did is they showed a sniper sitting on top of an armored vehicle targeting the crowd. and it was basically on the front page, it was on every news broadcast. that’s not what it was for. if you’re a sniper and you’re deployed for that reason, you should not be seen. to use that as some type of a visual deterrent for a riot or something like that is not a very good idea. all you’re doing is insighting other people to get upset, it looks very military. we’re starting to see certain cities pulling away that equipment from law enforcement, which is desperately needed, because if they don’t get it free through the military, the equipment is still needed and then the cities have to purchase it through their normal budget processes and some of this equipment is very expensive. >> so what do local police departments need humvees for, for example? >> we had two humvees. and i was on the search and rescue team for almost 20 years. and it’s a four-wheel drive vehicle that we would pull our all-terrain vehicles out in the desert looking for lost or injured persons. they were pulled from us because they were too military looking. now, we don’t have anything. we’re trying to find vehicles that aren’t military looking that were doing the same job, and it’s going to cost the city money. it’s all perception. >> what does that sort of image of militarization do for the rhetoric and the conversation about policing? >> i think ron is right. that iconic image of that sniper on the roof of the armored vehicle in ferguson was very damaging. on the other hand, ron’s also correct that police agencies need this kind of equipment. they need armored vehicles, they have to have that capability. do they need them every day? absolutely not. but when they need them, they really need them. and, you know, my fear is that we’re in a situation politically where it’s going to be difficult for agencies to deploy that kind of equipment, let alone procure it when it’s needed. and that may put people at risk at some point. >> okay. we have a tweet from lesley. if you’re not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear. law enforcement deserves more respect for their hard work and dedication. ron i wanted to ask you this, you covered this earlier this year. in the most recent independent study of the el paso police department of the traffic stops that every police department is required to conduct, what concerns some city officials is the fact that out of african-americans who were stopped by the el paso police, 19.1% of them were searched and that was significantly higher than white people or hispanic people who were stopped or asians. the police department said that’s not racial profiling. but that number still concerns some el pasoans. >> you don’t have an average — if — if an officer stops you, and there’s enough probable cause for a vehicle, he’s going to search your vehicle. it doesn’t matter if you’re white, hispanic or black. if they don’t have probable cause or you think they’re doing it because of racial profiling, there are ways to file a complaint, way to call a supervisor to the scene. the other thing you can do to address that concern. i don’t know why that 17 — 19.1% was higher than the others. that i don’t know. >> let’s go to craig on the west side on the phone. what’s your comment or your question? >> well, i think it’s very nice that you say that your police department works without bias but as an anglo, i can tell you i have been pulled over by hispanic officers many a time, given tickets, never had to pay a one because they never show up in court. but i believe anglos are discriminated against and i believe that we’re more like 18% of the population. not 5%. >> thank you very much, craig believes caucasian people here in el paso are discriminated against by hispanic police officers. >> my response to that, no, they’re not. >> so beyond the no, what would you say to craig? what steps does the police department take to ensure something like that doesn’t happen. >> your normal traffic stop, you have to have a probable cause, they committed an infraction. you can’t just stop somebody to stop somebody. if somebody is stopped just because they’re white, black, hispanic, they should address the concerns through internal affairs or through the chief of police. and if that officer truly stopped him for a racial reason, that officer does not belong in this department. >> okay. should i be surprised, this is from ern, nobody is talking about army sergeant james brown. and from tony could it three there’s a lack of discipline in society that’s created this confrontation? children aren’t being disciplined by their parents and cannot be by their teachers anymore. there seems to be a growing lack of respect to any kind of authority for many years. and that’s from tony. what do you think of that comment, dr. smith? >> well, again i think we’re in a period of time where you know, the political climate is such and we’ve had some high-profile police shootings that have garnered national attention and we’re at a time where that’s a focus, and it’s part of a national conversation. we’ve been in these times before. and policing typically has improved or gotten better as a result of the conversation so i think it’s worth having. and i think it will — but the pendulum will eventually swing back and we won’t be in such a tense time. >> okay. we have to take one last break. when we come back, we’re going to get to more of your phone calls and questions. stay with you’re watching “abc-7 xtra.” >>> welcome back to “abc- xtra.” we’re talking about the police tension across the u.s. i want to address the tweet that we got earlier actually the e-mail saying this is happening in el paso, we’re not talking about sergeant james brown and he was the active duty soldier who didn’t survive that two-day dwi sentence at the el paso county jail, the video showed that he was subdued by deputies there at the jail. do you rember that case? >> yes, i rember it. i believe he passed away inside the el paso county detention facility. >> and those are the kinds of videos that i think make people really, really afraid sometimes of law enforcement. and that give out this perception that law enforcement sometimes uses excessive force when it’s not necessary. >> correct. i can’t speak for the detention officers, it’s a totally different organization than the police department. >> the county sheriff. >> there’s no excuse for that. the only thing — i told my sons this in the past. when you’re stopped by a police officer, do what they ask you to do. don’t be rude. don’t be obscene. don’t be smart with them. just have a professional interaction with them and you’re going to go on your way. you’re not going to get arrested, if you’re not doing anything wrong. and i think that’s what’s happening around our nation right now is when you’re stopped by a police officer, and you have a camera with you, you record this interaction with you and the officer and a lot of the times when you see the reaction of the person filming it, they’re pushing the buttons of the officer, trying to get a reaction. they’re saying certain things, they’re doing certain things, trying to get the officer to overreact so they can get their 15 minutes of fame on youtube or wherever the video lands. my thing is when an officer stops you, you’ve done a traffic infraction or criminal offense, just do as the officer asks you. >> but officers are enforcers of the law and shouldn’t they be held to a higher standard? these are the people we trust to not only protect us but to deal with taunters or potential criminals. so even if somebody is taunting them, trying to push their buttons, shouldn’t we expect them to rise above the fray, to rise above that and not to use excessive force? >> and if an officer goes to that level, loses his cool, uses excessive force and does things that are not allowed, that officer will be and should be terminated or sanctioned in some way to lose his job. i mean, officers don’t like that officers out there doing certain things, acting criminal in nature. officers don’t want to work with other officers like that. >> let’s go to ben on the east side. what’s your comment or question? >> i would like to say that the men in blue are trying to help our community stay safe. and what we need to do is people are being pulled over, if they’re trying to help us keep our community safe and, you know, we should comply with police officers, not, you know, get in their face and tell them that they have no right to do what they’re doing. comply and they probably won’t have any problems. there won’t be any problems with them. >> okay. thank you so much ben for your comments. let’s talk about body cameras. we’re seeing police departments across the country trying to purchase these for their officers so that in cases where there’s question about whether there was excessive force, there can be these videos. what do you think of that? >> i think they’re growing in use. certainly, everybody nowadays has a cell phone or some device that’s capable of recording an encounter. i think it makes a lot of sense for the police to have a non-biased version of the events that take place, that you might get from a body camera. i think there’s some advantages to them today. i think that they’re expensive, though, and the data storage that goes along with those hours and hours of high-def video is enormous. so there’s some real technical issues with them. that said, i think if we can solve those and make them affordable, i think that they can play a constructive role. >> ron, body cameras for the el paso police department? would you like to see them? >> we’re not against them. every single one of our units actually has a video audio recording in it now. the officers are all miked up already. so it’s not a major issue to have a body camera. it’s like the doctor said. it’s money. i don’t want to not hire police officers because we’re at an 18-year low for police officers because we need to buy cameras. if the state or the federal government could step and in assist el paso with purchasing them, i don’t have any issue with them. the only problem i have with them is what do you record and release to the media and what do you not? if i get involved in a critical incident and i’m forced to shoot somebody, and 15 minutes later, i’m talking to my wife and my kids on the phone so they don’t get scared and i can calm them down to — i don’t want that recording to be released for everybody to hear. that’s not like i did anything wrong but that’s my personal discussion i’m having with my family, you know. when an officer uses deadly force it’s not a very easy thing for an officer to shoot somebody and just oh, okay well, i’m going to go off to work again. no, it’s an emotional rollercoaster for officers. some officers get involved in shootings and they never come back. they can never accept that they had to take a human life even if it was justified. some of them end up quitting the department because they just can’t handle the stress. >> okay. vernon e-mailed us when you approach an african-american suspect are you at a higher alert level versus approaching a suspect of a different race? it seems officers take a little more precaution which dealing with black suspects. i’ve been pulled over with riding with a white friend and the experience was way less tense. why is this? >> me personally, i treat everybody the same. when i do a traffic stop, i use caution. i watch the vehicle, i watch the driver, i watch the passengers, i want to see their hands, if they start doing certain things that make me nervous, my tension level rises and how i’m going to approach them rises. i don’t think it’s black, white, hispanic or whatever. when an officer stops somebody, we don’t know you. we’re not your friend. we don’t know what you just did or what if — what you might have just did. it’s a first time encount, somebody we don’t know and we’re going to take precautions so we can go home at the end of the day alive and once we get into the interaction and it’s not a threatening situation, there’s no crime being committed, you can see the officer’s threat level come down and they start acting a little bit more real. they’re not on that sense of something they happen. >> and i think you know, you personally at a microlevel but at a mark — macro level, a societal level, why is there this pervasive conversation that there is heightened tension between black communities and police departments? >> well, look, there’s no question that there’s a historical basis for that right? i mean, african-american population is the only major ethnic group in the country that was brought here as slaves and that historical legacy has an effect, it has an effect in the african-american community in which the way they view police and agents of authority, there’s no question about that. we’ve had times in the ’60s where there was a great deal of tension between police particularly in the south with african-americans. it’s certainly understandable that there’s a different level of attention between police and african-americans compared to police and other ethnic groups bottle history. >> so aren’t people doing a disservice when they say — to the conversation when they say you know, really there is no issue when it comes — police officers are color-blind essentially when they deal with suspects? and at a microlevel, i believe that most officers are not racist. but at a societal level, there’s clearly an issue. >> well, and i think, you know, that societal issue that you’ve mentioned is made up of hundreds or thousands of micro encounters that occur every day. there was 64 million encounters between police and citizens a couple of years ago. so you know, on an individual level, i would absolutely agree with you. most officers i think do a good job and they try to treat people as human beings no matter what their race but that does not — that doesn’t erase the historical tension i think that’s been there between police and african-americans in particular. >> okay well, thank you so much for joing us. we’re out of time. thank you so much dr. smith. thank you so much ron, always good to see you. thank you