ABC-7 Xtra: Pope’s Impact

>> live, where news comes first, this is “abc-7 xtra. >> good evening, i’m maria garcia. the pope tonight headed back to the vatican after a historic week in the u.s. his presence has inspired millions of people. his words brought hope in a divisive and difficult time in this country. he also spurred dialogue among the religious and nonreligious. his message before congress igniting a conversation about many of the social issues facing our country. immigration, climate change, safeguarding society’s most vulnerable and the poor. and voter many talking about his silence on the u.s. legalizing gay marriage. joing us tonight, dylan corbertt, the director of the “hope border institute,” he worked with the u.s. conference of catholic bishops for several years and has studied pope francis since he was elected. with the secular perspective tonight, cesar rivera of “joi us for justice,” and wit americans united for separation of church and state, philosophy professor at nmsu. you can reach us at abc7xtra@kvia.com, also on 915-496-1775, #abc7xtra, and twin cities me and @mariagabc7. and pope francis hit the streets of philadelphia for the final time today bringing hundreds of thousands outside to celebrate mass. the main event came just hours after the pontiff talked with victim was sexual abuse. abc’s marci gonzalez is in philadelphia with more on the pope’s last hours in the u.s. ? >> tonight prayers from pope francis. >> the father and the son and the holy spirit. >> the pontiff celebrating mass with hundredings of thousands of overjoyed people packing this philadelphia parkway. they waited in line for hours to get through security checkpoints, just to catch a grims of the papal parade and hear his message echoing through the heart of the captivated city. >> my brothers and sisters, let us turn to our father in help. >> the pope started his final day in the u.s. meeting in private with victims of sex abuse promising accountability within the church. >> god weeps for the sexual abuse of children. these cannot be maintained in secret. >> the people’s pope again demonstrating his passion for the disenfranchisized, visiting a prison. >> i stand among you, a pastor, a shepherd, above all as your brother. >> each hug and handshake as heartfelt as the love he shared with the littlest in the crowds. >> and after this memorable and busy first trip to the united states including visits to washington, d.c. and new york, the pope leaves tonight to travel back to the vatican. marci gonzalez, abc news, philadelphia. >> all right. joing us now are cesar rivera, board of directors of “join u for justice,” and dyla corbertt, the director of the “hope border institute. thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks for having me, maria. >> thank you have having me. >> dylan, i want to start with you. what do you think will be the main lasting impact of this visit? >> that’s a good question. i think it’s hard to say, hard to point to one thing the holy father said or one lasting impact that the holy father left. i think he’s left us with an amazing number of images, an amazing number of gechos. he’s a public symbol, a public gecho and he’s done it again. a lot of people had expectations for the pope’s visit but i think he surpassed all of them. today just today he was in a prison in philadelphia reminding each of those prisoners, throughout the country because this was televised, of their dignity as human beings. he visit underprivileged children or immigrant children, i don’t think i’ve seen the holy father happier during his entire trip. he turned down lunch with politicians at capitol hill to join people who were homeless for lunch, and to serve them lunch. those were the lasting images, where he’s touched people, comforted people, shown them the love and compassion of god. >> speaking of symbols, the symbols that carry meaning, they really convey a message about the catholic church. cesar, you’re not a catholic, you’re bringing a secular point of view to this. you’re nodding your head, but i think it’s clear for many americans, a lot of non-catholics, a pope the people can agree with his message. >> i agree with every single thing dylan said, the gechos, the messages, the symbols, it’s so important that the pope dissociated immigrants from criminality which has been coming from several politicians pandering to the lowest of the low in society. he reminded people who are incarcerated and homeless people of their dignity. there’s not a lot more i can say except that i am happy that the pope has filled the environment of american media with a message of union, rather than divisiveness, a message reminding that refugees are human beings. whether they are muslim or not, we should not be afraid of them, we should recognize their humanity. and whether they are undocumented or not they are human and we should respect their humanity. as a secular human myself, it’s a message that resonates with me and i agree with dylan on that. >> you were saying, he comes at a time people are covering the presidential elections, which the american media really covers presidential leks like they are some sort of soap opera, right, with the most dramatic sound bites, the next most dramatic sound bites. in typical american fashion americans like to politicize everything. the democratic party increasingly attempted to claim francis as sort of their policy champion saying that he chose immigration as climate change as issues to talk about. congressional conservatives before the visit, we heard them talk about him in ways at times where they perceived him as sort of a threat. on his way to the u.s. pope francis made it clear to the presage’s not a liberal. so how much are people thinking he’s a sort of progressive liberal pope, how much of that is projection, how much of it is really that he is that? i’ll start with you, dylan. >> sure. you’re right that the american political scene isn’t something to be celebrated today. i think pope francis, what he did essentially was bring to the world stage but also to the national stage a different paradigm of leadership. leadership if you were to pay attention to the political debates in this country is all about tearing down, it’s about sniping, bringing people down. and pope francis’ is entirely something different. leadership is about service and primarily about service to the margins. that’s something a lot of american politicians and perhaps a lot of americans during this silly political season haven’t heard. you spoke about the politicization of pope france” message. he would say his message i think is neither democratic or republican. in terms of left or right, i think this is a pope who’s better understood in terms of top and bottom. he’s a pope that says we need to pay attention to the people at the bottom, the poor, the migrants, those suffering injustice. he doesn’t pay attention to political categories, he pays attention to the people at the bottom. >> but people watching him do pay attention to left or right. there is something to be said that, you know, democrats believe the u.s. needs to regulate the economy and the environment. and so does the pope and that was his message. so his message does seem to align in some way, if you really simplify it, with the values of the current democratic party. >> uh-huh. i — i think that — that should be a little bit more nuanced, okay? >> right. >> the message of the pope is primarily the social doctrine of the catholic church. the lodgecally speaking, he is not heterodoxy, he is within the orthodoxy of the catholic church. that doesn’t mean that some of his positions don’t align with democratic positions. the visit enables people to realize nobody owns a specific christian denomination like the catholic church. some politicians have tried to convey the message that they are the representatives of christianity and everybody else in the other party are people who betrayed the message of jesus christ. no, if you pay close attention, there are deeper current, some of which align left, some of which lean right, some of which are probably center. that with respect to the environment and immigration, the kind of discourse the democrats have been putting out there is closer to the message the pope has been putting on the table. >> and you know, it’s true that his message, he’s a jesuit, and his message of safeguarding the poor obviously a doctrine from the church, not anything new to francis. but he’s also a head of state who conducts foreign policy. what’s fascinating i think about pope francis is the issues that he has chosen to elevate as a priority for society, for government. and issues about again, safeguarding the poor, climate change. those are the issues he’s chosen to elevate as these are our priorities as a whole, our communal responsibility. whereas he shows more nuance in his rhetoric toward issues of gay marriage and abortion, the way he speak busy them is almost like it’s an individual choice. would you agree? >> well, there’s certainly a distinction to the made between personal sins and structural sins. i think pope francis is give you a new dimension to the structural sin in our social system, infrastructure system, he wants to put the emphasis more on those systems and structures weighing upon the boor in a disproportionate manner. you said he’s a political leader and a head of state, that’s true, but primarily he’s a pastor, a shepherd. he sees himself as the guardian and protector of the poor and marginalized. that’s the position of jesus christ whom he represents. he didn’t want to arrive in washington, d.c. his plan originally was to come to el paso to come as a migrant. that’s because he’s particularly sensitive to the situation of migrants in the world today. we’re facing an unprecedented crisis since world war ii, with migrants and refugees. in the united states we’re still fighting an immigration crisis. he wanted to come through the border to show this is solidarity with the immigrants and the dignity of the immigrants. it’s not primarily a political message, it’s a pastoral message with political implications. >> we had an influx of unaccompanied minors coming through this border, we saw the diocese and several el paso churches step up to house these immigrants. we have jerome in the northeast on the phone. jerome, your comment or your question. >> do you think that the message will resonate, or will it evaporate shortly after he leaves? >> that’s a very good question. will his message resonate or evaporate? >> i think — i can say the following. i believe that he is reenergizing social justice oriented catholics and progressive christians, precisely because of the emphasis dill ran was talking about on a structural — what he calls structural sin, what i would call structural injustice, which definitely is closer to the discourse of liberals and conservatives who happen to emphasize more individual issues of character and virtue and vice. but with respect to his lasting impact, i can think right now of an example. the speaker of the house just announced that he is resigning. some people are saying that was a direct result of the pope. i think it’s much more nuanced. but i think one thing that might be the result of the pope’s visit, the way the speaker of the house distanced himself from what he called false prophets. and the false prophets are the ones h m hind, we know this because he said that already on an interview actually. they are the ones trying to shut down the government and defund planned parenthood. probably the speaker of the house might not be the greatest fund-raiser for planned parenthood but he definitely seems to be somebody who is not willing to allow the government to be shut down on his watch. and i believe that probably — probably the pope has a little bit of influence on his decision to make that strategic move. >> we saw john boehner weeping next to the pope. i mean, he was clearly moved to tears. and in fact, john boehner is known as a moderate. it’s arguable the people who will miss him most in congress are democrats because he is known to some as someone who — a politician who is a realist who can broker deals with the other side, at a time when the gop is arguably leaning toward politicians who praise not negotiating, who praise not reaching across the aisle. we’re going get to that in just a little bit, the impact on lawmakers that the pope made. but we’re also going talk about doctrine what, conservative catholics have said about pope francis when we come back. you’re watching “abc-7 xtra. remember, you can call us at 915-496-1775, you can also tweet me at @mariagabc7, and you can also email us at abc7xtra@kvia.com with your comments or your questions. and before we leave you to commercial break, here’s abc-7’s reporter to wrap up with you. >> all this week we’ve been following el pasoans who traveled to see the pope as they share their experiences on social media. here are some of the highlights from el paso bishop mark seitz right before the mass. bishoped arrived at the seminary for their meeting with the pope this morning. then sharing some of the excitement from the crowd. diocese found a familiar face, father john stowe, now a bishop. some 200 of the el pasoans following the pope, lots of them showing photos of their sight-seeing of the pope, like this one too quick for the camera to focus. thousands of pilgrims spent long hours there he is, the >> welcome back to “abc-7 xtra. we’re talking about the impact of pope francis’ visit in the u.s. thank you so much for joining us. i want to ask you about what, within the catholic church, some of the criticisms of pope francis. raymond leo burke, an american cardinal in 2013 said that the pope is not free to change the church’s teachings with regard to the i am morality of homosexual acts or the insolu built of marriage or any other doctrine of faith. he’s been pretty outspoken in his criticism of pope francis. the pope has also been immensely popular around the world. so what is this doing inside the catholic church? >> i think it’s doing a number of things. i think pope francis is — one of the things that makes him unique is his background. he’s latino, he’s from argentina, a novelty in the catholic church. pope’s in recent years have all been from europe. so he brings a completely different set of priorities. his biography brings completely different things to the papacy. the catholic church like every institution has attention between the center and the periphery, the center and the margins. here you have a man leading his ministry in the slums with the poor as a pastor, an archbishop of a major metropolitan city in latin america, would wane knows eye race. >> and it’s fresh, different, new, and doesn’t deal with people top down. he’s not changing doctrine, changing dogma but he brings an approach that’s entirely different, one concerned with the individual, with the person. one who believes that god is in the midst of that person’s life in their struggles, in their difficulties. we haven’t seen that before. >> he’s also creating reform within the catholic church. he’s also changed structurally — >> definitely, this pope is a reformer, no doubt about it. in a number of ways he’s reformed. he’s brought that perspective of being an outsider to the papacy itself. he’s moving to a church that’s more horizontal, bringing vision to others on the periphery. he has a new governing structure which brings in cardinals from of a car, the congo, different parts of the world. that’s entirely new. on sex abuse, for example, he’s instituted reforms we simple haven’t seen, guaranteeing a zero tolerance policy for the church and says people will be held accountable. he’s a man that brings a different perspective, a different set of priorities and a different governing style that’s causing frankly some people to — some confusion in catholics who aren’t used to seeing this type of ministry. >> what is that sort of different kind of message from the catholic church, what does that convey to nonbelievers, to people who have no interest in joining the catholic church? >> first of all, let me say that i used to be a roman catholic and a very devoted one at eight. i’ve been an observer of the catholic church for 20, 25 years and i have to say that this is another aspect of the papacy that i agree with dylan here, the perspective, the latin american perspective he’s bringing into the papacy is refreshing, definitely moving towards reform. the second vat cal council, okay, represented a moddization of the roman catholic church, but that certainly slowed down and from the perspective of secular human nix, even probably backtracked a little bit from the papacies of john paul, ii and pope benedict xvi. i believe he’s moving forwards. from the perspective of somebody who’s not interested in the roman catholic church but interested in social justice, i’m happy with that kind of development. however, that is not home know genius. it has some blind spots that i would like for the hope to make progress on. >> like what? >> same-sex marriage, respect to lgbt people, a little more emphasis on sexual morality from a much more humanistic perspective. there are sources in the traditional faith of roman catholicism that would enable him to make a little more progress. that doesn’t mean i would like for catholics to abandon catholicism. i just believe still, one of the great things the pope said in his address to congress, was that every religion was amenable to fundamentalism. with respect to sexual morality, even this progressive pope, he is not letting go of a certain integrallism within the corporate tax, a kind of mummism. >> there is room? is there room for that to maintain sort of the integrity of the catholic church’s beliefs and the doctrine, while still as cesar points out, addressing those blind spots? >> sure. roman catholicism, biblical christianity even i open to development. it has to be a development that doesn’t sacrifice tradition, contradict tradition. i think the pope’s teaching on environment for example, we haven’t seen a teaching like this in a long time. it’s not that he’s contradicting his predecessors, john paul, ii or pope benedict xvi, but he’s deepening the tradition and taking it further in terms of ecology. he’s connecting, saying there’s a moral imperative to address ecology. not only because the environment is worth protecting but because of the environmental degradation acclimate change are connected very intimately with how we treat the poor. that development can take place, and i think this is a pope introducing dialogue in the church about a variety of different things, ecology, human sexuality, in a way we’ve never seen. he’s not going to make changes that contradict tradition or doctrine and not going to make changes that aren’t predicated on a discussion that takes place within the church. >> there’s some confusion about the dialogue, especially when it comes to gay catholics or gay marriage. when he was speaking at the philippines he took a much more conservative, much more conservative, much more direct stance on gay marriage than he has in other places where he’s spoken. you know, we’ve all read the very famous quote, who am i to judge? but when he was speaking in manila, he also made it clear that catholic oh doctrine does not accept gay marriage. >> that’s right. he’s reiterated the church’s teaching in that respect. it’s interesting that he walks a fine line. he hasn’t succumbed or he hasn’t thrown gasoline on the culture wars during his time here in the united states. i think that’s notable. he hasn’t made declarations on gay marriage or abortion, hasn’t hit on those themes in ways that would provoke a strong reaction. i think he thinks that those parts of the teaching of the catholic church need to be put in their proper context. i think in perhaps the last several years americans have been — had a proceed clift to see those issues through the lens of right whipping or left wing politics. >> but in the u.s., the catholic church, specifically through the knights of columbus, have spent a lot of money and political energy trying to limit abortion and trying to limit gay marriage, which is — which is — wie seeing a different in pope francis saying, clearly that’s not a priority for him. he’s not speaking about it much. but that is again different from what we’ve seen the american catholic church do in the united states. >> yes. i agree with you, and let me add something to what i was saying before. yes, the pope is not going to declare a new doctrine new. in fact, there’s no such thing as new doctrine from the perspective of catholic theology. just a deepening or a discovering of certain areas of the catholic doctrine that have not been emphasized. however, from an outsider’s perspective, with disagree with that interpretation. in the ’60s the vast majority of catholic expert on contraceptives were willing to step ahead and allow the catholic church to allow for contraceptives that were not natural, and allow for more than just one method. it was a tiny minuter who backtracked on that and went ahead and influenced pope paul vi to continue the tradition. to what extent is the really making a revolutionary change to say, probably we made a mistake in the past. probably now we can move along. probably they could move along without contracting the traditionists, think about ecology. the pope is moving closer to what science is telling us about climate change. couldn’t he also recognize that science has told thaws told us that there’s nothing abnormal would gays, lesbians, lgbt people in general. >> okay. we have to take a break. when we come back we’re going to talk about what pope francis’ message is for nonbelievers. we will come back to that. you’re watching “abc-7 xtra. you can reach us at 915-496-1775, @mariag-abc-7, or email us at >> welcome back to “abc-7 xtra, we’re talking about the impact of pope francis’ visit. dylan, i want to ask you about that. the church says pope francis’ words are still true to doctrine but he’s said some really revolutionary things. in 2013 he said nonbelievers can be forgiven by god if they follow their conscience. god’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. the issue for those who do not believe en god is to obey their conscience, end quote. a lot of people said he was saying atheists can go to heaven. >> he has tried to marshal the energies of the church to focus on a key concept and that is mercy. he’s talked about mercy over and over again. this is a theme that’s very dear to pope francis. he says that the mercy of the lord is the greatest gift that god can give. when he was elected to the pacy he said this is, technical the localing cal term, he said this is a chiros moment, we’re living in a special moment right now. what the world needs is not more judgment, more splannations of teaching but simply the mercy, to experience the mercy of god it’s available to anyone, catholics, jews, people of no faith. we find god in the depths of our hearts and/or consciences, and that’s a message that pope francis chose to lift up and reiterate. >> so does that mean, though, that someone who does not believe in god can find god in a way, even if they are not seeking god, through their conscience? >> absolutely, the mercy of god knows no bound. >> even an atheist who says i do not believe in god? >> absolutely are that’s a core teaching of the catholic faith. the pope is reminding us in a way we haven’t heard in some time, god’s mercy, god’s love knows no limits. >> that clearly different 80s from certain fundamentalists and evangelical churches who believe that without the true faith, you’re not a christian, you don’t accept jesus into your heart, you are not going to go to heaven, you’re going to go to hell or be destroyed by the armageddon. >> but doesn’t that sound like a more esoteric view of god than — >> i think the pope’s view is. >> mirror reasonable than that. i appreciate that. however, i do want to say the following. from the perspective of “join u for justice,” from th perspective of not secular human nix but from the per aspect of an organization that fights for separation of church and state, what matters is not whether it’s a christian denomination is willing to extend salvation or the opportunity of salvation to those who belong to a different faith or no faith at all. >> what matters to us is the willingness they have not to try to have the government privilege their faith over other faiths or nonfaith. if the roman catholic church is willing to do that, we are willing to work with that christian denomination and other christian religions for separation of church and state, so that everybody can actually enjoy freedom of religion or if they so want. two groups of people who probably can benefit from that are women in their access to contraceptives which has sometimes been blocked by catholic organizations and lgbt people. >> thank you so much for joining us, my director is telling me we have to go. thank you so much, really, really interesting, dylan. >> thank you. if i may really quick, i’d like to present dylan with a mug which says, i respectfully disagree. it just means we are willing to engage in exchange of ideas and work together for justice. >> thank you very much. i think this dialogue proves we agree on quite a few things. >> we respectfully agree on many things. >> we do. thank you so much for watching “abc-7 xtra. we hope you fountain it informative and we’ll see you in captioning